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Post by Dawn on Feb 4, 2009 18:47:36 GMT -5
Here on the Click, we've touched on the subject of radio playlists getting more and more narrow with the passing of time. It seems like for almost every format, particularly oldies and classic rock, a handful of songs are getting played ad nauseum, while other songs languish in the vaults, and are seldom if ever played again. This wasn't always the case. I remember in the '70s and early-to-mid '80s, the playlist selection on top 40 was much broader, both in the number of different songs played as well as a wider range of styles. I remember some of the first oldies stations I ever listened to, in the late '80s and early '90s, played an amazing variety of hits. It wasn't uncommon to hear, say, the theme from "Exodus" followed by Pictures of Matchstick Men and Can't You Hear My Heartbeat. Now, you'd be lucky to hear any of those three songs on an oldies station, much less all of them. What I've often wondered is, how and why did this narrowing of the playlists take place? Was it simply a matter of economics or logistics on the part of the stations, not wanting to maintain a large music library? Did radio stations survey listeners and get feedback that they wanted to hear primarily bigger hits, and not lesser-known ones? Or was it a more gradual process instituted over time, and people accepted it because there was no alternative? (There's satellite radio, but I've heard that it too is beginning to experience the "narrowed playlist" phenomenon, particularly since the XM-Sirius merger). Changing demographics? Some other factors? As to the "when," from my personal experience I'd say it started to happen with oldies/classic rock around the mid '90s, but has gotten even more noticeable since the early '00s, when more '70s and early '80s songs started to be included. I haven't kept up with top 40 in recent years, although I did listen to it somewhat regularly for a year or two in 1995-96, and it seemed as though there were not as many different songs being played as I remembered from years earlier, probably about 60% of the number of songs you would have heard on a top 40 station ten years prior to that. Thought this would make for an interesting discussion - please share your thoughts.  |
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Post by m c dornan on Feb 4, 2009 23:29:32 GMT -5
Well I don't know when or why, but I've got a couple observations. When I was a kid in the 60s, AM radio had a "Top 40" format" Now when I've heard bits of radio countdown shows like Casey Kasem, they're now "Top 20" format. That cuts your playlist by half. In the 70s, FM was an underused spectrum, and "freeform underground" stations flourished. But they became so successful they were bought up by big companies, and were dead (in the underground sense) by early 1980s. Now FM is mainstream, and AM may the new underused spectrum for little stations. In the 80s on, you had narrowing corporate ownership (Clear Channel  ) Several stations here have slogans like "You already know the words to all the songs!" In other words, no surprises. Probably lots of people don't listen to the radio. I don't, almost never- TOO MANY COMMERCIALS! I got Youtube, and cassettes. Hope that helps some. |
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Post by Dawn on Feb 5, 2009 12:19:00 GMT -5
Well I don't know when or why, but I've got a couple observations. When I was a kid in the 60s, AM radio had a "Top 40" format" Now when I've heard bits of radio countdown shows like Casey Kasem, they're now "Top 20" format. That cuts your playlist by half. In the 70s, FM was an underused spectrum, and "freeform underground" stations flourished. But they became so successful they were bought up by big companies, and were dead (in the underground sense) by early 1980s. Now FM is mainstream, and AM may the new underused spectrum for little stations. In the 80s on, you had narrowing corporate ownership (Clear Channel ) Several stations here have slogans like "You already know the words to all the songs!" In other words, no surprises. Probably lots of people don't listen to the radio. I don't, almost never- TOO MANY COMMERCIALS! I got Youtube, and cassettes. Hope that helps some. That's interesting about the newer countdown shows having only 20 songs - I hadn't known that. But it definitely fits with the format's playlists getting narrower. As I was typing up this thread yesterday, I was thinking about the top 40 station I listened to in the '90s, and even then you'd have been hard-pressed to hear 40 songs in a typical countdown played regularly. You're right about the FM stations becoming more mainstream. It will be interesting to see what happens with the AM band in the future. About Clear Channel - it wouldn't be so bad if they tried for a little more diversity in their formats, but they own so many stations, and seem intent on making all of them as similar as possible. It's probably a desire to appeal to as wide a demographic as possible, but it doesn't make for much variety. There are still a few independent stations left, but I imagine it's difficult for them to stay financially viable, particularly with the economy the way it is. |
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Post by 55dodger on Feb 5, 2009 21:18:51 GMT -5
First, I may not be the "expert" on the current state of radio. Pretty much the only time I listen to the radio, is when I'm changing CDs.
When I started listening to the radio back when Top 40 charts were etched in stone, AM radio ruled the airwaves. FM radio had limited range and were usually attached to the local JC. That all changed when stations like KMET & KLOS came on board and started playing rock that was a little more progressive. You heard album cuts, fewer commercials, no loud-mouthed DJs. That's the way it was in Southern California up to the time I left & joined the service in late 1973. When I returned to So. Cal in 1976, FM radio, as MC pointed out, had become the mainstream.
I believe the playlist reduction probably started around then. You heard less & less album cuts, and more & more of the top 40 hits. The intro of CDs made it a whole lot easier to skip the non-hits on the disc & go straight to the top 40 songs. And TV commercials now make great use of oldies & classic rock instead of thinking up their own cute little jingles. Somebody must have decided since it's on TV, that what people want to hear on the radio.
As for oldies & classic rock stations, I remember listening to K-RTH (a great LA radio station) in the mid-70s. Then they played all the great stuff I grew up with from the 60s. But it seems as these formats get older, the oldies get younger. I've even seen classic rock playlists that include Greenday. Go figure. And I see a lot of playlist created by kids (kids compared to an old grump like me) that include all the tried & true stuff you here on classic rock radio stations everywhere.
I guess the end of radio for me was when I got here to Kansas, and I'd hear the same songs over & over & over again on the oldies station. Got tired of it. Just started listening to my own stuff. It's much better anyway.
I hope this helps the discussion, and is not just the rantings of a grumpy old man. Old guys rule though.
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Post by H2IZCOOL on Feb 5, 2009 22:42:02 GMT -5
Well I don't know when or why, but I've got a couple observations. When I was a kid in the 60s, AM radio had a "Top 40" format" Now when I've heard bits of radio countdown shows like Casey Kasem, they're now "Top 20" format. That cuts your playlist by half. In the 70s, FM was an underused spectrum, and "freeform underground" stations flourished. But they became so successful they were bought up by big companies, and were dead (in the underground sense) by early 1980s. Now FM is mainstream, and AM may the new underused spectrum for little stations. In the 80s on, you had narrowing corporate ownership (Clear Channel ) Several stations here have slogans like "You already know the words to all the songs!" In other words, no surprises. Probably lots of people don't listen to the radio. I don't, almost never- TOO MANY COMMERCIALS! I got Youtube, and cassettes. Hope that helps some. That's interesting about the newer countdown shows having only 20 songs - I hadn't known that. But it definitely fits with the format's playlists getting narrower. As I was typing up this thread yesterday, I was thinking about the top 40 station I listened to in the '90s, and even then you'd have been hard-pressed to hear 40 songs in a typical countdown played regularly. You're right about the FM stations becoming more mainstream. It will be interesting to see what happens with the AM band in the future. About Clear Channel - it wouldn't be so bad if they tried for a little more diversity in their formats, but they own so many stations, and seem intent on making all of them as similar as possible. It's probably a desire to appeal to as wide a demographic as possible, but it doesn't make for much variety. There are still a few independent stations left, but I imagine it's difficult for them to stay financially viable, particularly with the economy the way it is. Hey MC and Dawn. What's wrong with a Top 20 countdown?!!   I think that radio music directors are no different than, say TV network bosses. They all think that people are stupid. Feed them one thing and one thing only, and it HAS to work; there's nothing else for people to watch or listen to. So you get TV networks that feature the same "reality" show from 85 different angles, and radio stations that play the same 10 songs ad nauseum. Yes, Dawn, you're right about XM also. Last weekend I had Classic Vinyl on and in the space of two days I heard "The Wind Cries Mary" 3 times! It's a great song, but c'mon guys. You have access to every classic rock song ever recorded, and you have to play the same song 3 times (at least) in one weekend?  Are they lazy - maybe. But the insulting thing is - they think we're stupid! Itr won't be long before I'll cancel XM and go back to listening only to my CDs (which I was listening to before I had XM) and like Woody, only listen to the radio when I'm changing CDs. |
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Post by jpkansas on Feb 6, 2009 4:45:29 GMT -5
Our company does what the consultants tell us to do, which leads to stupid stuff like having two Classic Hits stations in our own company competing for listeners and playing the same stuff over and over again.
Frankly, the only time I listen to our stations is when I am at work. The rest of the time, it's internet radio for me.
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Post by H2IZCOOL on Feb 6, 2009 9:29:35 GMT -5
Our company does what the consultants tell us to do, which leads to stupid stuff like having two Classic Hits stations in our own company competing for listeners and playing the same stuff over and over again. Frankly, the only time I listen to our stations is when I am at work. The rest of the time, it's internet radio for me. Joe, I think hearing this from someone "on the inside" is more telling than anything else. I think your company needs to hire new consultants!  |
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Post by Dawn on Feb 6, 2009 11:45:30 GMT -5
First, I may not be the "expert" on the current state of radio. Pretty much the only time I listen to the radio, is when I'm changing CDs. When I started listening to the radio back when Top 40 charts were etched in stone, AM radio ruled the airwaves. FM radio had limited range and were usually attached to the local JC. That all changed when stations like KMET & KLOS came on board and started playing rock that was a little more progressive. You heard album cuts, fewer commercials, no loud-mouthed DJs. That's the way it was in Southern California up to the time I left & joined the service in late 1973. When I returned to So. Cal in 1976, FM radio, as MC pointed out, had become the mainstream. I believe the playlist reduction probably started around then. You heard less & less album cuts, and more & more of the top 40 hits. The intro of CDs made it a whole lot easier to skip the non-hits on the disc & go straight to the top 40 songs. And TV commercials now make great use of oldies & classic rock instead of thinking up their own cute little jingles. Somebody must have decided since it's on TV, that what people want to hear on the radio. As for oldies & classic rock stations, I remember listening to K-RTH (a great LA radio station) in the mid-70s. Then they played all the great stuff I grew up with from the 60s. But it seems as these formats get older, the oldies get younger. I've even seen classic rock playlists that include Greenday. Go figure. And I see a lot of playlist created by kids (kids compared to an old grump like me) that include all the tried & true stuff you here on classic rock radio stations everywhere. I guess the end of radio for me was when I got here to Kansas, and I'd hear the same songs over & over & over again on the oldies station. Got tired of it. Just started listening to my own stuff. It's much better anyway. I hope this helps the discussion, and is not just the rantings of a grumpy old man. Old guys rule though. Woody, you bring up a good point about CDs making it easier to skip to the hits. Back in the day, when everything was done via turntable or reel-to-reel, there was a lot more human interaction, and more of a chance that something more unique would be played. Now, everything is digital, and pre-programmed into playlists that don't get deviated from much. I listen to KRTH on occasion, and also KOLA out of San Bernardino. They're both oldies stations, but as you said, their playlists are getting younger. I've heard mid '80s songs on both of them, and I'm guessing that after next year, some late '80s and possibly even '90s songs might start popping up. |
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Post by Dawn on Feb 6, 2009 11:53:38 GMT -5
That's interesting about the newer countdown shows having only 20 songs - I hadn't known that. But it definitely fits with the format's playlists getting narrower. As I was typing up this thread yesterday, I was thinking about the top 40 station I listened to in the '90s, and even then you'd have been hard-pressed to hear 40 songs in a typical countdown played regularly. You're right about the FM stations becoming more mainstream. It will be interesting to see what happens with the AM band in the future. About Clear Channel - it wouldn't be so bad if they tried for a little more diversity in their formats, but they own so many stations, and seem intent on making all of them as similar as possible. It's probably a desire to appeal to as wide a demographic as possible, but it doesn't make for much variety. There are still a few independent stations left, but I imagine it's difficult for them to stay financially viable, particularly with the economy the way it is. Hey MC and Dawn. What's wrong with a Top 20 countdown?!! I think that radio music directors are no different than, say TV network bosses. They all think that people are stupid. Feed them one thing and one thing only, and it HAS to work; there's nothing else for people to watch or listen to. So you get TV networks that feature the same "reality" show from 85 different angles, and radio stations that play the same 10 songs ad nauseum. Yes, Dawn, you're right about XM also. Last weekend I had Classic Vinyl on and in the space of two days I heard "The Wind Cries Mary" 3 times! It's a great song, but c'mon guys. You have access to every classic rock song ever recorded, and you have to play the same song 3 times (at least) in one weekend? Are they lazy - maybe. But the insulting thing is - they think we're stupid! Itr won't be long before I'll cancel XM and go back to listening only to my CDs (which I was listening to before I had XM) and like Woody, only listen to the radio when I'm changing CDs. Well, in some cases they are cool!  That's an excellent analogy with TV and the reality shows. It used to be that only a handful of network aired them, and now you have MTV, VH-1, A&E, BBC and others airing reality shows - networks that used to be distinctly different in their programming. The same thing is happening with radio, as the lines between formats are getting more and more blurred. I don't have a separate XM subscription, but we get the music channels on DirecTv. I don't listen all that regularly, but that's disappointing to hear that they're starting to thin out their playlist and repeat songs more often. My guess is they're going to lose quite a few subscribers if it keeps up. |
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Post by Dawn on Feb 6, 2009 12:03:06 GMT -5
Our company does what the consultants tell us to do, which leads to stupid stuff like having two Classic Hits stations in our own company competing for listeners and playing the same stuff over and over again. Frankly, the only time I listen to our stations is when I am at work. The rest of the time, it's internet radio for me. I agree with Ed - it's very telling to have this confirmed by someone working in radio. That is strange to have two identical formats competing - it seems like that would complicate matters as far as advertising revenues. There is a similar scenario where I used to live in VA - one company there has two or three country stations, all operating in the same geographic area. I agree, Joe, there's lots of good choices to listen to on the internet. |
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Post by m c dornan on Feb 6, 2009 19:09:44 GMT -5
Consultants? Are these the same ones who told AMC cable channel the people wanted commercials and no classic movies? And the same ones who told our paper that the people demanded less coverage, tinier print, and no puzzles in the weekly TV listing?  |
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Post by Dawn on Feb 6, 2009 22:40:57 GMT -5
Consultants? Are these the same ones who told AMC cable channel the people wanted commercials and no classic movies? And the same ones who told our paper that the people demanded less coverage, tinier print, and no puzzles in the weekly TV listing? I hear ya, MC. AMC used to be such a class act, and would show all kinds of great movies and features, and now they're pretty much like any other channel. Our newspaper is getting restructured too, to cut costs. They say the changes will be minor, but time will tell, I suppose. |
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Post by jpkansas on Feb 7, 2009 6:18:41 GMT -5
Our company does what the consultants tell us to do, which leads to stupid stuff like having two Classic Hits stations in our own company competing for listeners and playing the same stuff over and over again. Frankly, the only time I listen to our stations is when I am at work. The rest of the time, it's internet radio for me. Joe, I think hearing this from someone "on the inside" is more telling than anything else. I think your company needs to hire new consultants! No argument here, Ed. Frankly, our owners do not have a very good reputation in the industry. |
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Post by daniel on Feb 7, 2009 14:25:16 GMT -5
That's so true... The station I used to work for was ruined by a consultant. We were in an area with a very high hispanic population, so our programming people played a lot of artists that appealed to both audiences -- Gloria Estefan, Jon Secada, and the appropriate crossovers like Babyface (This was an A/C station in 1995) The station was #1 in the demo with this approach for a while until the station was sold and a new consultant came in and made the station heavy into Michael Bolton and Rod Stewart and the station was in the toilet in 2 books.
Anyhow, my point is I believe the narrowing of playlists came in the mid-90's when ownership groups got larger and programming decisions began to be handled at the corporate level rather than being done at the local level.
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Post by 55dodger on Feb 8, 2009 0:18:27 GMT -5
So maybe we should hire ourselves (the Music Click) out as consultants, and let all those station managers & program directors know what the listening public really wants to listen to. Then again, they probably wouldn't listen to us. What do we know. We're just music lovers.
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